Satan-Heroic?

In the reading, we see that Satan has not given up the battle with God, here Satan exemplifies the motive that has been rooted in our heads: always pick yourself up when you fall down. For Satan, he has fallen down hard, to the pits of Hell, and God is against him yet he has not lost his motivation to regain his power. In fact, he is optimistic about getting revenge on God. He even brags “What though the field be lost?/ All is not lost; the unconquerable Will, / And study of revenge, immortal hate,/ And courage never to submit or yield:” (Book I, Lines 105-108). This can be confusing for readers as we are so inclined to root for Satan to ‘pick himself back up’ but we have also been taught that Satan is the root of all evil.

Reading 3

Lines 215-219, "while he sought/ Evil to others, and enrag'd might see/ How all his malice serv'd but to bring forth/ Infinite goodness, grace and mercy shewn/ On Man...". Is Milton saying that Satan's evil is necessary for the definition of good? Can anyone describe good as anything more than the absence of evil? I mean, if there was no concept of evil, there would be no way to understand what "good" is because what would be "good" would be the norm.

Also...

In Dante's Inferno, the ninth and final circle of Hell is reserved for the treacherous. Satan is imprisoned in the very center, but the description of Satan and Hell in Inferno and in Paradise lost are completely different. Dante describes Hell as an icy wasteland with a lake of ice, and claims that Satan is encased in ice, weeping for eternity in anger and regret. Milton probably used Inferno as inspiration, but the way Satan is in Paradise Lost is the complete opposite of the way he is portrayed in Dante's Inferno. Furthermore, I feel as if Milton referenced all the epic poets except for Dante. Is this only because of the Puritan/Catholic split?

Reading 3

As I was reading through the text I noticed that Milton says that Satan was floating on the lake of fire. Is this an ability of all demons and heavenly beings, or is there a strange commonality between Satan and Jesus, who is also known for walking on water?

From Coach Crook to Evil Students:

I'm really enjoying the posts and comments!  Hope we can bring some of them to our class discussion. I also want us in class to look carefully at the text.  Y'all are doing a great job of first readings, but everything we read should be re-read, I think you'll agree.  When you get the chance, be sure to read through the comments your fellow students are making.  I'm trying to read all post and all comments, though I might not comment on everything.  Thanks, Evil Ones!

Reading 3

Did Satan and Beezlebub leave Hell? I don't understand how they can just leave.

Also, Satan reminds me of Iago when he talks about how "If then his Providence/ Out of our evil seek to bring forth good,/ Our labor must be to pervert that end,/ And out of good still to find means of evil" (book 1 lines 162-165) because he is so devoted to creating evil and messing with God even if God tries to make them good. He sounds very schemey and devious when he talks about getting revenge on God. Milton also uses a lot of ocean imagery in this section, but I'm not quite sure why. I think it is to comment on the size or power of satan? Maybe?

From the Eyes of the Enemy

Going back to the second reading, Satan's soldier or comrade says in lines 134-139, "Too well I see and rue the dire event, that with sad overthrow and foul defeat hath lost us Heaven, and all this mighty Host in horrible destruction laid thus low, as far as Gods and Heavenly Essences can perish." This just reminded me of the quote from Dr. Faustus by Mephistopheles. He says that he never leaves Hell because he has seen and lost the wonders of Heaven and the glory of God.  Satan's soldier is saying that their fall is so much greater because of where they have fallen from.  In the third reading section, Satan basically says that all his actions are based on the sole purpose of hurting God. In lines 159-162 he even says, "To do good never will be our task, but ever to do ill our sole delight, as being contrary to his high will whom we resist." He is evil and acts evilly just to get revenge on God. He also says in lines 165-168, "And out of good still to find means of evil; which oft times may succeed, so as perhaps shall grieve him, if I fail not, and disturb his inmost counsels from their destined aim." Satan is confessing that his motive for malignity is purely being evil for the sake of being evil and being evil for the sake of being the opposite of good.

Reading 3

The thing that strikes me most in this particular reading is the extended simile likening Satan to Leviathan. Leviathan is a sea-monster so huge that sailors mistake it for an island and attempt to anchor on it. In doing so, they chain themselves to a huge sea beast and are dragged around the ocean as a result. Now I think there are at least three ways to interpret his simile. The first is the idea that Satan is the sailor and Leviathan is hate, meaning Satan is losing himself to his hate. This makes the most sense to me because the poem says "high permission of all-ruling Heaven/Left him at large to his own dark designs" ( 212-213). The next interpretation is that Satan is Leviathan and Hell is the sailor, which means that Satan is dragging Hell around, turning it in a new direction under his guidance. My last interpretation is something more implied, that Man is the sailor and Satan/Evil is Leviathan. Honestly, i misread the passage the first time, but since this meaning made LOTS of symbolic sense I decided to stick with it. Suppose humanity represents the sailors, who happen to be lost at sea. They see an island, and upon finally seeing land they are absolutely happy, and decide to anchor on it. Now, they know nothing about the true nature of the island, but they're attracted to it because it seems so much better than being hopelessly lost at sea. When the "island" finally starts moving, they realize their mistakes and are either even more lost or dead. Since Satan/evil is Leviathan in this instance, Milton could be saying that people often "anchor" on evil, because they are lost and see nothing more attractive at the time. Only after Satan/evil reveals itself do people realize that they are even more lost or are damned.

Satan's actions - Screwtape

Lines around 210 through 220 describe Satan's actions meant to hurt people ending up good, light, or in order instead of towards disorder. Milton says "while he sought Evil to others, and enrag'd might see How all his malice serv'd but to bring forth Infinite goodness, grace and mercy shewn On Man by him seduc't, but on himself Treble confusion, wrath and vengeance pour'd." This reminds me of Screwtape Letters because wormwood's "patient" goes to church, becomes friends with religious people, prays, or does something for God after wormwood tried to negatively influence him. Screwtape advises wormwood several times and later finds out that the patient reacted by praising God in someway. The slight difference between praying towards god versus an idol constantly gets wormwood into trouble or danger of losing his patient. I guess I'm trying to say that evil is defeated often and enraged as a result. Also, the margin by which evil loses is very small from slightly changing an action or thought. Satan tries to negatively influence humans, but often finds that he does good. This must be frustrating if you want to do everything that is not good. God seems to clearly by the ultimate god and creator. Does this make sense?

Volcanic Explosion

When I was reading the description of Satan rising from the sea of fire, I did not see the volcano imagery at all in lines 220-237. However after reading it a second time, Milton uses words corresponding with eruptions as the "land that ever burn'd with solid" and "whose combustible and fewel'd entrals thence conceiving Fired sublinm'd with Mineral fury." Milton's punctuation here is interesting because he capitalizes Fire and Mineral. Why?

Another interesting part in the third reading was lines 212-218 where Milton imposes god's ever present power in the middle of all this evil. It's almost like a side thought and an interjection. While Milton was getting so fired up about hell, he had to remember his original intent to justify the way's of god to man. Milton explains that Satan was allowed to rise up from the fiery sea only because god allowed him. For what reasons? Milton says that god hopes to see after Satan is left to his own evil design to bring evil onto man, Satan will eventually see all the "Treble confusion, wrath and vengeance pour'd." So far from our reading, I don't think this transformation is going to happen anytime soon. God might just be wrong. At this point, Satan is all about fighting god with vigor. Satan just got the knockout punch, but he gets right back up with his army of feigns and says "let's make some hell."

Names of Satan

So far in the reading, we have seen Satan called the fallen angel/ apostate angel, and arch fiend. The latter name makes me think of the arch duke or the arch bishop. It merely shows his powerful position over all the other fiends.

Reading 2

As I was reading, Milton begins to explain the positions that all of the fallen angels have taken up: pagan gods of the ancient world. They are worshiped by men even though they have been kicked out of heaven. They are even more esteemed now than before because now they are the gods. It is almost as if Milton is trying to say that the earthly world is hell, that what we are living right now is hell. I am not sure if this is correct but it reminded me of out discussion in class and how Mr. Crook asked if there is any way to beat somebody who is willing to take down the boat with them. By taking the Earth and humans, have Satan and his followers won even though they didn't win?

Reading 2

How many angels have fallen? Did they leave with Satan?  Who is he addressing? Who exactly is Beelzebub?

Milton uses the term, "Arch-Fiend"; does that mean that Satan is not the hero?

God's intentions with fallen angels (rd 2)

(good and evil) The fallen angel from lines 143-157 wonders why God let the them, the rebels in punishment, keep their minds and spirit. He mentions how miserable he is because he can remember the pleasures and happiness of heaven in contrast to his new world. In a way he is questioning the "goodness" of God. If God is good and forgiving, why does he send Satan and his followers out of heaven with out a chance to ever return? Or does God even send them to Hell like Milton says? I keep thinking of Harry Potter and Lord Voldemort. Lord Voldemort constantly tells Wormtail that he is only loyal to him through fear. Would it be arguable to say that angels in heaven and men may follow God and worship him out of fear of hell and God's power to put them there (if he even does so)? Is this why the bible, Jesus, and God's messengers say "Do not be afraid" before they speak of God's plans? Since God is omnicient, he would have anticipated Satan and his followers starting an unending war, and let it happen knowing that the fallen agnels would serve as examples of those who turned against God or disobeyed him. (A possible strategy of God's.)

(Problem) However, did God actaully create and place satan into the underworld? If heaven is such a rightous, happy, and suitable place, how could a conflict or desire to turn against God could not possibly occur? I do not remember the bible containing any statements of a war or conflict in heaven either. Rather, Satan is described as simply wanting to turn away from God. If your happy, why would you want to turn away? The stories that I have learned from my parents, church, and Paradise Lost are starting to conflict with each other. I'm rather confused about how a rebel against God came to be. I think this paragraph connects with a previous entry about the accuracy of the events that are in the Bible. Anyone can walk home and tell a story about speaking with God, but how many would do so and then publish volumes of their experience?

first impressions

I hate to say it but after reading the his first speech I'm starting to like Satan. He doesn't seem to base his logic on reason but he definitely has guts. To sum up what he said as I would have said it: "He beat us, so what? I don't care what he does I refuse to bow to him. I'd rather be here than go crawling back to Him." Its not the smartest thing to say, but he certainly does make an impression.

The Devil Thinking Out Loud

In the first part of this section (about lines 84-124), it seems like the devil is almost verbally trying to sort through what has happened.  The devil sounds a lot like Iago when he is thinking out loud.  In lines 105-109, he says, "What though the field be lost? All is not lost; the unconquerable Will, and study of revenge, immortal hate, and courage never submit or yield: and what is else not to be overcome?"  To me this basically runs parallel to Iago's belief that it doesn't matter if he loses as long as he takes his opponent down with him.  I also found the next few lines really interesting. Lines 111-116 say "To bow and sue for grace with suppliant knee, and defy his power who from the terror of this Arm so late doubted his Empire, that were low indeed, that were an ignominy and shame beneath this downfall".  This sounds almost like something the American patriots fighting for their independence would say, very patriotic and justified.  These lines just reminded me what Coach Crook says frequently in class about how the villains who are the hardest to defeat are the ones who can justify their cause and truly believe that their side is the right one.

Omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent

I tried to have a discussion with my mom tonight about Paradise Lost. I went into the conversation knowing that if the glory of God was in any way compromised, she would basically pitch a fit and put down everything I was saying. She is a strong methodist who attends bible studies several times a week.

I asked her the same question that Coach Crook asked us in class: If God is omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent as Christians have claimed through the scripture, than how can Satan ever deceive him? How can Satan ever get the upper hand, how can he ever win, why does he even try if there is no way that he can win?

My mom claimed that Satan has never been able to deceive God. She said that at times, it has looked like God has been tricked, but in the end he hasn't. I am not well-versed enough in the scripture to disprove her, but I believe that there are probably some examples of Satan having some success. If not, evil is present and often successful in everyday life.

She went on to discount Milton, claiming that his word is not scripture and is not the word of God. Coach Crook said that people often blur the line between fiction and reality when it comes to Paradise Lost. These events have made me question the definition of scripture. When God spoke through Moses, the words were recorded and it became scripture. As far as I know, there is no empirical proof that God actually talked to Moses. People simply believed him. In the same way, if God speaks through Milton, why is Paradise Lost not considered to be scripture, while the words of Moses, John, Mark, etc. are considered to be scripture with not much more (maybe not any) truth? After all, much of Milton's epic was based on the apocrypha books of the Bible, words that are or could have been considered to be scripture.

Reading 2

I find it interesting that in lines 159- 161 Satan says that from then on he and the other angels will focus on doing evil.  For Satan, good and evil would have to have been defined by God.  Since God is good, performing evil would be doing the opposite of what God says this would mean that God had to give the angels a set of rules to follow just like he gave to man.

Reading 1???

I like how Milton opens up the book.  He starts the story with a great dramatic opening of Satan getting banished from Heaven, and him vowing revenge.  Maybe I read a little to far ahead, but I feel like if I were writing a movie, it would be about the war between God and Satan in which Satan is defeated.  Then as Satan lies there defeated, he rises up to vow vengeance on God in a never ending eternal war, setting up the ending for a sequel.  I suppose what I am saying is that the opening tells of even some more back story, and baits the audience with more to come.

Reading 1

In Lines 1-26 Milton invokes the Muse, who is the same Muse who inspired the first Christian-Judeo theologist (the shepherd). He asked to be exposed to knowledge not obtainable through human means.

I find it interesting that he says, “What in me is dark Illumine” (Milton line 21-22). After reading 27-83, I find it interesting that he uses light imagery to talk about himself. We are lead to believe that light represents good and dark evil; I don’t know exactly where I am going with this thought.

I am confused about God’s role in this story. Since this is an epic, shouldn’t the main character be the hero. God seems like a minor character. We are following Satan and his struggle; God also seems like a bully to me. Why must we “justifie the wayes of God to men” (Milton line 25)? If God’s way was just and fair would it need justifying? On that note, why are Satan and his follower’s punished so severely? What does this say about God? Don’t all subjects have the right to rebel?
Milton has some justifying to do, because I don’t know how I feel about how he is portraying God. God seems like a Corleone and I’m not sure how I feel about that.

Reading 1

Milton is calling upon the Muse to help him write of humankind’s beginning, such as man’s first sin in the Garden of Eden. Milton seeks to surpass the epic poems of all before him, and he calls on the Muse to help him, like the Muse helped the shepherd teach “…the chosen Seed/ In the Beginning how the Heav’ns and Earth/ Rose out of Chaos” (book 1, line 8-9). The Muse is able to tell him the story of what the beginning was like, as the Muse was there to witness it, and Milton is only calling upon the Muse to help him write the book so as he may show the ways of God to humankind. Milton introduces Satan by blaming him for Adam and Eve’s temptation to disobey the Creator in the Garden of Eve. Therefore starts an account of how Satan is cast out of heaven and attempts to go to war with God. Though he has lost, he only begins to feel the pain of having lost the goodness of heaven and the forever lasting pain that is to stay with him in the place he must dwell, which is so unlike heaven.

reading 1

The first thing I noticed when reading the summary on the title page of book one was that Satan is referred to as an archangel, a rank equal to Michael, Gabriel and Raphael. This strikes me as something that goes along with Iago. God, like Othello, must hold Satan in some high esteem and probably trusts him as a well qualified adviser. As for the rest of the reading, Milton invokes God as his muse to write his epic, and he describes Hell itself as the defeated army rests. The one question I have is probably off-topic, but how can spirits wage war against each other if they cannot die? I suppose torture could be an option but it would have to last forever because time means nothing to someone who does not age. I'm just a little unclear about that.

Reading 1

Notice the point around line 62 where Milton says "As one great Furnace flam'd, yet from those flames/ No light, but rather darkness visible"(book 1, line 62-63). I can't quite remember at what point in Othello we mentioned it, but I know that we discussed this notion before of darkness visible. I think in this line, Milton is once again describing the dark realization Satan has as he looks around hell of how dark the world can actually be.

It's also interesting to me that what hurts the most about hell is not how terrible the place is, it's more how terrible the place is compared to heaven. If the Devil had never known of heaven, would he not be satisfied to live in hell all his life? Is that not the main torture of hell for humans: comparing it to how good life on earth was to how it is in hell?

Reading 1

It starts out describing the story of Adam and Eve, and it relates the act of eating the Forbidden Fruit to Pandora opening her box—both of which brought all the death and woe into our world.  Then it describes how Jesus brought humanity back into the favor of God with a reference to how Aeneas, while founding Rome, brought the Trojans into good (or better) terms with the Latin gods and goddesses.  Then Milton directly invokes the muse while referring to the creation of the world and the Ten Commandments.  He boasts how his epic poem will become very famous and reach previously unattained heights (meant here as a pun to mean levels of mastery in poetry and as the literal sense of height because it will fly over Aonian’s Mountain).  Then he goes on and describes his goal to explain God’s actions to men which mirrors Virgil’s goal in the Aeneid (Muse, remember the causes for me, with what offense to her divinity or grieving over what did the queen of gods drive a man to undergo so many misfortunes to undertake so many labors).  Then he explains how it was the Devil’s influence over Adam and Eve that caused them to betray God.  The Devil once was an angel, but his pride had cast him out of Heaven; therefore, in an attempt to match his glory with God’s glory, he fought against God in a large war.  The Devil terrorizes men on Earth as well but not as long for he is tormented by the memories of lost happiness and now everlasting pain.  Then it goes on to describe Hell as a large furnace where inside the light only reveals darkness.  In Hell, this darkness visible serves only to illuminate sights of woe; sorrow; places where peace, rest, and hope are never found; and where torture never ends.  It also introduces Beelzebulb who is Satan’s right-hand man.

Reading 1

In lines 1-26, Milton uses the classical approach to beginning his poem. Using apostrophe, he calls upon the muse to inspire him, help him make the best poem, and assist him in portraying his theme: "justifying the ways of god to men" (26). In these lines, Milton makes many biblical allusions to Mount Zion and Sinai and more. He mentions them like Homer mentioned Greek Mythology in his poetry.
During the next section, Satan and his comrade, Beelzebub, are introduced. Mainly we learn about the history of the war between God and Satan. In addition, Milton mentions Satan's role in the eviction from the Garden Eden. Evil's motives appear to be revenge, lust, and pride. In the height of his pride, Satan tried to overthrow God, but God threw him down to hell, where Satan plots his revenge. Evil's presence began in the very beginning of man's time on earth.

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